Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

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Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

Post by MRich on Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:56 pm

Pretty straightforward.

With his 4-game suspension, they've turned to Jimmy Garoppolo, and Jacoby Brissett. In that time, NE is 3-0, with +36 net points.

Garoppolo is 42/59 for 496 yards and 4 TDs.
Brissett is 17/28 for 195 yards and 0 TDs.

Granted, one player does not a team make, but it does have me wondering if Brady's "success" at the QB position isn't a function of coaching and/or the organization and the rest of the team, rather just him being THAT good.

And I wonder what sort of impact that's going to have on his legacy for those who think he's the "greatest of all time".
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Re: Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

Post by lgkehoe on Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:53 pm

Great topic. It resides among the source of all creation and the chicken and the egg.

The simple answer is yes, Brady is a product of that organization, because that is where he has always played. I know that's obvious, but what I am really trying to do is give credit to that organization. It's the absolute gold standard. I keep seeing people compare disparage Garrett by comparing him to Hoodie. It's ridiculous. That same comparison would put 99% of all head coaches, in all sports, in all leagues into an unflattering light.

I think we should first define success for Tom Brady. Is it the championships? The consistency in results? His money? How hot is wife is? The elevation of play from otherwise failed receivers? His money? How hot is wife is?

Ultimately, beauty is in the eye of the beholder....and circumstances.Well, I don't think his wife is all that hot. However, when I watch him play quarterback in a system that highlights his strengths and protects his weaknesses, he is one of the best I've ever seen...ever. (What a treat its been to have the best of Brady's and Nationwide Manning's careers on the field at the same time!)

Could Brady have survived the "mystery meat" days of the Cowboys offensive line? He would have wanted inflated balls to help cushion him from the ground. Could Romo have led the Patriots to as many post season accolades? I'd say he would not have, because Brady, in that system, with that supporting case, is the better quarterback. Now, add in for Romo some better QB coaching and development from what he has received in Dallas, and the gap gets smaller. Yet, what cannot be coached without the raw desire present is competitiveness and an obsessive drive for perfection from himself and those around him. Brady has that in spades over Romo. Add that to Romo and imagine what Hoodie could do with that QB!

Just had a thought...if Dak doesn't work out, let's bring back Bledsoe, and then sign whoever backs him up to a long term deal!

I won't ever take anything away from Brady just because he happens to be playing for the best personnel guys and one of the best coaches of all time, all rolled up into one mad genius who co-starred in the career of a fantastic quarterback and vehement perfectionist. Many a coach and organization would love to have had Brady as an instant QB upgrade. And that would work out well for Brady and whatever organization as long as they had the willingness to invest int the protection, and sought the players who would respond well to his leadership style. And don't forget an owner/GM who neither over estimated his strengths nor underestimated his weaknesses, and knew enough to stay out of the way, sticking to mac n cheese, or Papa John commercials, or whatever they do best.

Ultimately, what we have here is a chicken that didn't need an egg. It only needed the right parts of the egg, but got the hole thing anyways. And we also have an egg that didn't need the chicken. It just needed the farmer to leave it alone so it could make its own chicken..or duck, or platypus, or whatever. What an awesome egg!
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Re: Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

Post by MRich on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:17 pm

It could be, too, that the "egg" is awesome because it was an "ugly duckling" that turned into a swan, as it were.

I mean, look at some of the Defenses that NE has had since he's been there, and some of the "lucky breaks" they got (I'm looking at you, "Tuck Rule" game). Of course, there's the old saw, "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity".

But keep in mind that I'm not questioning his competitiveness or work ethic. He was a sixth round pick, though. Generally speaking, Sixth Round picks at the QB spot don't go on to win multiple Super Bowls. Unless they're supremely talented, or have the right coaches/players/etc. around them.

Though now you do have me curious about where the Pats Defense and Offense performance overall is compared to other teams over the timeframe he's been the QB. My guess is they've been riding defense a lot, too...

That's how the Ravens won a Super Bowl in 2001, and anybody remember the 1985 Bears?
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Re: Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

Post by Cowboy1959 on Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:58 pm


I think the answer to this matters less than you think it does.

Was Roger Staubach a product of Landry's system?  Or Troy Aikman of Jimmy's?  Was Emmitt Smith a great RB, or did he just have a great line to run behind?

The point is that they were the right man at the right time.  Could every other QB in the league during Brady's tenure have had the same, similar, or better success than Brady himself?  I think that answer is obvious.  Ryan Leaf, anyone?

Having a great supporting cast around you is important, but the 6 Hall of Famers (and 3 guys who SHOULD be Hall of Famers) on the 1970 Cowboys couldn't win a Super Bowl.  It took the unique skills and intangibles of Roger Staubach to put them over the top.  Could Staubach have won a Super Bowl in Philadelphia that year?  No.  The Eagles were mediocre at best (6-7-1), and Staubach's unique skills and intangibles would only have gone so far.

When you ask questions like this, in a way you're denigrating the talents of the person you're examining.  It's unfair, because it assumes so many variables that can't be fully known.  It's also somewhat foolish, because you're looking at 15 years of QB stats versus single-game performances.  Let's see how Garoppolo and Brisset look after a month, let alone a full season, before we start throwing mud on Brady.

However, since you asked, I think the answer lies in how that specific player performed when the chips were on the table.  In Super Bowl 27, Aikman was 22-for-30 for 273 yards and 4 TDs.  His performance earned him the MVP, and his surgical skills that day were a huge part of the blowout win.  

Likewise, Brady's career QB rating in 6 SBs is 95.3.  Of the 111 QB performances in the Super Bowl, his WORST performance ranks 53rd overall, and there are a lot of Hall of Famers whose names appear below that mark.

Now, QB rating is hardly a precise indicator of ability, but it sure doesn't hurt that his performances rate so highly.  And if you extend your analysis to playoff games and important regular season games, I'm sure you're going to find very similar results.

A better analytical tool would be to examine how his play improved or reduced his team's chances of winning a particular game.  Rich, you're the mathematician, so you'd know how to build a model like that (I wouldn't even know how to begin).  One of the measurements would be to look at INTs in critical situations.  He's averaging fewer than 1 per SB, which means he's pretty good at not putting his team in bad spots.

One weakness in his game that I've been noticing for the past few seasons in particular is that he's definitely awful when he doesn't have time to throw.  He will get out of his game if you can pound him enough early.  That's something the Cowboys did particularly well during the first half of their game last season, but they didn't have the horses to keep it up in the second half and he picked them apart, whereas other teams have.

But is that a fair criticism?  Name a QB that DOESN'T get out of his game when he's got defenders in his face all day.  And if that's the only criticism that can stick, then it's a fairly thin beef.

NO player ever wins a championship by himself.  It's never happened.  At best a player can be the missing piece of a puzzle who elevates his team to play at a higher level for a possession, a quarter, a game, or a season.  We have had the great pleasure of seeing a great player operate in a great system and bring outstanding results to his organization.  That's good enough for me, and I don't need to know how the sausage gets made.

The better question is, if the Patriots are this good right now, what will they be when Brady gets back, and will the NFL need to institute a 50-point mercy rule in their upcoming games?  He's going to return breathing fire, and he and Belichick won't be likely to show pity for anyone who gets in their way.  It could be a bloodbath for opposing teams the rest of the way.

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Re: Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

Post by MRich on Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:12 am

Reasonable points there, Cowboy. Hadn't considered a few of those perspectives. And unfortunately, NE (and now Brady) have a certain "shadowy" reputation, fairly earned or not, so certain aspects of their records and his games are going to come under a certain level of scrutiny.

I get what you're saying. That's part of what frustrates me about how people perceive Tony Romo. Do I think he's HOF? Probably not. Do I think he's a very good QB? Absolutely.

But I think we could look at some of the same issues you bring up with relation to him, as well. Because I'm pretty sure if we're honest, we know that he and the offense kept Dallas in a lot of games, and some of those games were blown by the defense.

Heck, though we lost, Dallas went score-for-score with a Peyton Manning led Broncos team. Poor defense? Two good offenses going at it? Or a combination of both?

Same thing with a game a few years back vs NE. We scored a go-ahead TD with less than 2 minutes to go. What happens? NE marches down and puts a TD on the board (Brady's greatness, or poor defense on that drive?). That leaves us down again. Then touchback, and we start on our own 20 with something like 15 or 20 seconds left on the clock.
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Re: Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

Post by lgkehoe on Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:21 pm

MRich wrote:It could be, too, that the "egg" is awesome because it was an "ugly duckling" that turned into a swan, as it were.

I mean, look at some of the Defenses that NE has had since he's been there, and some of the "lucky breaks" they got (I'm looking at you, "Tuck Rule" game). Of course, there's the old saw, "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity".

But keep in mind that I'm not questioning his competitiveness or work ethic. He was a sixth round pick, though. Generally speaking, Sixth Round picks at the QB spot don't go on to win multiple Super Bowls. Unless they're supremely talented, or have the right coaches/players/etc. around them.

Though now you do have me curious about where the Pats Defense and Offense performance overall is compared to other teams over the timeframe he's been the QB. My guess is they've been riding defense a lot, too...

That's how the Ravens won a Super Bowl in 2001, and anybody remember the 1985 Bears?

I think like you...Hoodie is the reason, along with some "luck".

But, I have watched too many a play, with Brady scanning multiple reads, looking off safeties, and dropping a dart or a bomb right on spot to no-name receivers. The dude is good. Dang good.
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Re: Is T. Brady a product of coaching and/or organization?

Post by lgkehoe on Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:37 pm

BTW, I think Romo should be in the HOF. Everyone likes to compare his story and results to Warner's. Whenever we compare, we end up casting a shadow onto one or the other. But if I were forced to choose, I'd easily choose Romo. Romo would have lit up teams with that offense all the same. He would have also flourished under better coaching than he's had in Dallas. And he would have had a span of years with a good defense, something he's barely had his first few years as a starter.
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